Is He Right!? | Nostalgia Holds Back Monster Taming Games? | Response
Original Video:
Check out these reviews for more information on the games in question, one thing I wish I did was really go into depth with each game individually, but I think the video would’ve ended up being 40 minutes if I did lol.
Coromon Review:
Monster Crown Review:
Temtem Arbury Review:
Nexomon 1 Review
Nexomon Extinction Review:
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While I do wish Coromon had dual typing I really like that they have move specific typing with Magic, Foul, Heavy and Cut.
Nostalgia kind of helps with me a little like if I don't understand what a game is but than I noticed it's farming like harvest moon or leveling up skills like Elder Scroll (darn you elder rings I don't even play you&was about to type ring than scrolls). But I guess those are ideas being used than Nostalgia.
While I can see some of his points, I'd be lying if I said it somewhat feels he wants innovation for the sake of it. That in itself isn't bad, but as others point out I feel that he sort of wants to turn the genre into something else rather than enjoying it for what it is.
His comment about metriod for example. Of course metriod will take iconography from the previous it's part of the same series. There isn't really anything wrong with that. He also kind of fails at bringing up what the games do differently, and while Coromon and Nexomon are VERY similar to pokemon.
I think Monster Crown has much more in common with Dragon Quest monsters than any pokemon game.
Nostalgia does holds it back sometimes, I call it Pokemon effect actually, since Pokemon became (wanting it or not) THE MONSTER TAMING GENRE representative, 99% percent of monster taming will take Pokemon as THE CORE MECHANICS, 'n since Pokemon have lots of games, specially gen 1 to 5, everyone will use this nostalgia to make games, to try to make the old Pokemon games in a more modern game design, which leads to my common com sayin' X game looks like a Pokemon rip off, its mostly the Pokemon effect the game had on the devs, even I would make a similar weakness system if I made a game like this, its just too good to change actually, but I would like to make something less Pokemon 'n more monster taming in general, mixing up the games, experimentation etc, some ppl will play safe while others will take risks to follow their own ideas while using Pokemon as base, so does this means nostalgia holds back? Yes, but actually no as I stated before
After watching both videos, I can't help but think that the problem might be iteration, not necessarily nostalgia. Nostalgia only affects how a person interacts with a medium – they can grow nostalgic for the old stuff, drop the new stuff and go back to playing the old stuff. Then there's people who absolutely eat up Coromon, Nexomon and the like because they serve the nostalgia but with a new coat of paint. That's because, as you mentioned, nostalgia is subjective.
What DOES potentially hold those games back is the undeniable Popkemon inspiration. A lot of the more "pokemon clone-y" monstertaming games take systems very specific to Pokemon. My favorite example is pokeballs. These things were specifically used in Pokemon because they resemble gacha capsules – that's also why items are in pokeballs. They were originally just micro storage devices based on one of Pokemon's original inspirations. It is then really weird to see the concept reused with different more or less geometric shapes. Less specific but still VERY reminiscent are concepts like "you always play a child/teen going on a journey" or "you have a choice between 3 starters given to you by an authority in the field".
That doesn't necessarily make those games worse as games, but I do think it holds them back in terms of becoming their own thing in the future. "This looks and plays like Pokemon" can be a great hook but I fear it might create a sort of "little brother effect" of always being associated with another brand. We already have that in the word "Pokemon clone".
For me personally there is no nostalgia at all and there actually can't be. I am 20 years old and in my friend group there are like 15-16 year olds that have never played on the old Nintendos and Gameboys yet love the franchise from the media and we were excited to play the games but they are just too old. I spent a few hours playing Pokemon Red but it did stuck me as not that interesting seeing everything just black white and stuff like that, while I can't just jump on the newer games since I will be missing context and stuff, so it is nice to have games like Nexomon and Coromon so that I can experience the joy of playing this genre while not struggling with playing old games, or games with missing lore
While they do seem to make some good points, they’re surface level points. I’m sure we can all point to at least one game that actually is a cheap “clone”, but it’s like they took a quick look at some trailer footage and based the whole argument on that.
pokemon is a cancer and so is nostalga
I have been loving Coromon. I definitely still prefer pokemon but getting that pokemon feel but in a new setting, with different mechanics and new creatures to catch it's been great.
I think just because Adam didn't stick with the game, that doesn't mean it's just nostalgia bait. I have been loving to actual difficult puzzles Coro has to offer and the new and interesting mons with new moves and abilities I have never experienced before.
Hot take: "MLB The Show" is held back by nostalgia for major league baseball.
😉
I wish he played these games more before making video essays about them. I do agree nostalgia kinda holds back some of these games including Pokemon itself, but the way he gets the point across feels wrong when he hasn't given any of these games a real chance.
Hm…Honestly nostalgia is all subjective, people have all their own bias. For all Pokémon remakes aside from ORAS, I had no nostalgia, nothing good or bad. Even with ORAS where I remember playing the originals, I don’t think I bought it just because it was a remake, it was because it looked cool and something that would be fun.
Maybe I’m immune to nostalgia or something but…I will give this video one thing. Nostalgia does warp the way we see things. Something might not be as good as we remember them or if this nostalgia is damaged that can also warp perception over similar looking games. I saw way too many people who absolutely lost it over SWSH and jumped over to TemTem expecting that game to fix everything they hated and be exactly like Pokémon but better due to everyone throwing the two games against each other. However once it was revealed it wasn’t, the playerbase really fell off a cliff in comparison to the hype.
"I don't like how grindy temtem is" they say about the MMO, cause MMO's that are also RPG's have NEVER HAD GRINDING IN THEM
I honestly think Adam’s video has some good points but is very badly researched
It's funny to hear your response about nostalgia while playing Pokemon music in the background lol
I also love how the part where he brings up the other games which failed for being so similar to their predecessors that they also emulated their flaws and did not get what was so good about them has nothing to do with the rest of his arguments or the monster taming games he was talking about.
I just realized this now listening to it from your video but it's a complete non sequitur. These games copying the stuff from pokemon that fans did not like is not a complaint he puts forward except casually while talking about temtem and all of these mt games… like are really well received and succesful and have been for quite some time? Like people who buy them and leave reviews don't really seem to feel like they are too archaic or hit a turning point where they snap and leave.
If the argument is I don't like this then it's fine but if the argument is "it does not work", like, buddy, I don't know how to tell you this, but…
I do agree that nostalgia is holding them back to some extent. Most of these games follow a 3 stage evolution line almost religiously, which is a damn shame imo. I would love to see branching evolutions. Another saddening trend I've noticed is not so subtlety copying the pokemon Dex trend. Weak bird pokemon, bee Pokemon, etc all at the beginning of the game. There's literally billions of animal species to borrow from, surely they don't have to stick with the same skeleton as pokemon. Because IMO this is a major weakness of pokemon! I got TIRED of seeing the same sort of mouse/bird/bee/cat/dog structure in every one of the games. Mix it up I say! There's other games to borrow from that do some things better than pokemon. Take the good from Pokemon, Digimon,Shin Megami Tensei, and leave the bad.
Edit: Also this guy's opinion is whack for not giving each game at least 10 hours, and then critiquing them harshly. If you're gonna judge actually PLAY the games a good chunk. Way to spit in the face of the dev teams.
I think 3d is holding games back for cost to make, time to make, storage, cross platform use(cyberpunk 2077), and graphic card capable
People tent to call other Monster-Taming-Games "Pokemon-Clones" which is fine in itself to give you an idea of what the game feels like. But in my opinion it's also very dismissing towards this Games since it basically calls them Rip-Offs
Glad you did a response to this video. I saw it yesterday and while I agreed with some things, I agree he missed the mark even with other indie games and categorized them all as shallow. I was surprised he even had a negative view of Sekiro. It’s very clear as he said in the video, he only played a few hours of each and didn’t get to explore every unique aspect of these games.
I get to some extent that not every mon game doesn’t have to do a Pokémon battle setup, top down view. But yeah even with Monster Crown, he should’ve gone far enough to see that you obtain your “starters” a different way (quiz). And that the monsters are vastly different from Pokémon’s designs.
Hopefully he sees this and changes his mind/gives them all another chance.
Adam Millard seems to be suffering from a double-standard that applies to many genres.
Those some critiques can apply to First-Person shooters as well, and the Battle Royal modes. Nobody says they are "copying" or being reminded of "insert other first-person franchise here."
Some arguments can be said that nostalgia stagnates the potential of games as it did for sword and shield. But a truly great game adapts the best of those points and adapts them to change our opinions of how they can be used like are us did. A good example for this is monster sanctuary which gives us the what we want. Companies should look to consumers and can make profits off the hunger to replay an old game on a new console, the proceeds could be used to further new projects.
you say you dont fault the guy for not being in the know but if youre whole thing is making a video about nostalgia being bad and using specific titles as examples: him not thoroughly researching makes a bad video. its ill-researched
No people make games not nostalga.
It really is subjective and based on your own opinions and likes.
I personally love very similar pokemon-like games, such as Coromon, Nexomon, and TemTem but I don't find Monster Crown nor Monster Santuary as appealing. I havent bought a pokemon game since gen 5 because I was just so disappointed with the directions they went.
Thank you so much for your response.
The grind in temtem is neither (as Ed said) a problem with monster taming games nor is it a problem with temtem. It is a problem with mmorpgs.
The devs of temtem have for some reason taken upon themself the task to make an pokemon like/MMorpg-Like game. But instead of making a well thought out game that unites both of these gametypes into one new experience they have created a single player game and glued every single bad facet of MMORPGs onto it, while leaving out all the good and enjoyable parts of an mmorpg.
They try to fix this, but what I have seen of their efforts until now only makes it worse. I do not think they have ever played anMMRPG for a long time, or if they did they do not understand the genre. They have also already declared that they do not plan to give temtem the support that long running mmorpgs normally have, which makes me wonder why they even started doing that….
Thanks for this video response. I was having some of these same thoughts about that video. I think Adam was being far too reductive when considering nostalgia in the first place, and when contextualizing specific titles as well. Interestingly, this entire topic is basically about how a genre comes into being. We wouldn't have genres if not for this process. Everything would somehow miraculously be entirely new. In reality, everything is a reference to things that came before. This is true in a physical as well as literal sense. I am derivative of my parents, and humanity is derivative of all other animals that came before it evolutionarily. In the same sense, genres emerge in game development, and people complain about nostalgia-seeking designers. The conclusions in Adam's video are crude and shallow, demonstrating a lack of diligence I think is unbecoming of someone who's intent (or implied intent) is to speak with authority on such things.
My problem with these monster taming games is that look like Pokémon but with a slightly different coat of paint. They just seem like they're hyper fixated on replicating the style of Pokémon, but not the substance.
Whoever says nostalgia is holding back games is either delusional, a liar, or stupid. If nostalgia is holding back monster taming, then explain to me why we're still getting new titles? Sure Pokemon, Digimon, DQ opened the way to monster taming, but it's not like we have to be limited to their mechanics.
His video was very good but you made some excellent points too. It was pretty clear he only had surface level experiences with those games and didn't seem to look for what made them different, only what made them the same. But this kind of thing is good to keep in mind since I'm trying to make my own monster tamer game.
It's a real shame some people in the Pokemon community scared off Yo-Kai Watch since I liked those games. 🙁 Their show was pretty hilarious too.
When I look at Monster Crown, I don't see Pokemon. I actually see that Diamond rom hack Telefang. lol.
It's basically impossible to make a truly unique game. Oh, you have a game that captures something and uses it in battle? You're just copying Pokemon. You have a guy with a sword running around? You're copying Zelda. But like with games/books/movies, the important thing is do you mix up the formula enough to where it's still enjoyable.
I dont think so, its imposible to play temtem for nostalgia feeling. I play it because it is good! Same to coromon. Also that guy is wrong generalizing on his personal pov. (My english is bad sorry haha).
I really feel like he missed everything that makes the four mon games he talked about so much fun. While they're not all for me, I've sunk obscene amounts of time into Nexomon, and I don't need to have played the other three to understand that they're all very different games. I just have to fundamentally disagree with every point of his you brought up.
That was a really nice response video. I must admit, I agree it would be nice if people stopped using the term "Pokemon-clone".
Whats the Better solution to leviate on nostalgia trend by balancing or removing ? I dont had anything to feel to nostalgic execpt Just remembering my way on playing probaly im different person to think like these. But im not giving up support both RPG pokemon like and the original game that started all for inspiring these. Im personaly Happy what we are getting currently no matter how nostalgic Is. It gonna stay for future generation to come.
To me this video feels a little too standoffish at Adam for what amounts to a pretty valid criticism of at least 3 of the 4 games mentioned (I haven't played monster crown to say).
He did mention towards the start of the video bouncing off all 4 games, and the 3 of these games I have played take a while to introduce mechanics outside things reminiscent of Pokémon.
Game designers only have around 2 hours to get a player invested in a game (most people drop most games at or before this point). Adam has a really good video on this as well and it's one of his most watched.
For Coromon I think this puts you just a tiny bit before the point when the puzzle like gameplay really kicks off that makes the story mode so enjoyable.
For Temtem has it's deterministic double battles on display straight away but really needs some of the late game side activities to really pop and you need to beat kisiwa before you see those.
For Nexomon extinction, I gave up looking for something to enjoy after 13 hours of play. I really did not like this one.
The examples he used of dual typing and grind were pretty good examples too.
Dual typing is not just intrinsically better it's better for these games cause they are closer to Pokémon. Games like Siralim ultimate or Digimon Story Cybersleuth I don't think would be improved by dual typing because they use there types differently then Pokémon, Nexomon, or Coromon.
The grind mentioned by Adam was the story levelling grind caused by the difficulty of the game whereas the grind your talking about (and identified by crema) is more late game oriented, both are problems, but the the story levelling grind actually isn't that bad if your experience come from mmos or jRPGs but it feels a lot worse if you come from a Pokémon background.
The late game grind you mentioned could also be argued to be another symptom of the nostalgia not being implemented correctly. The SV and TV systems are only slightly modified versions of IV and EV systems (presumably with inflated numbers so they end on round numbers so people can understand them better) from Pokémon but they feel soo soo much worse because Pokémon has hacked Pokémon (especially 6iv ditto) making breeding easier and the power items for EV training. They are also not similar to systems typically used in related genres like jRPGs which are likely to use set stats or stat allocation. The trainer every like 4 steps is also something that happened a lot in older Pokémon games level designs.
I actually think that being close to Pokémon is a problem in the 3 games I've played, All mechanics I can think of that I don't like were either Pokémon DNA directly or with only some minor tweaks. I also think that those toxic Pokémon fans mentioned that lash out at games that are further away is not antithetical to the idea presented but a symptom of the backlash against changed mechanics writ large.
I'd go so far as to say that of the 2 games I like I liked them despite the similarities to Pokémon dragging them down and being further distanced may have made them more enjoyable.
I do feel like the video was a little unfair showing only a negative light on monster taming as a genre (Thou I did note he never actually mentioned these games as a genre and was specifically talking about 4 example games that all draw inspiration from Pokémon), especially as it stands now where it's a mostly indie space. I think a mention of a mongame that did it well was warranted (and monster sanctuary would have been a great spot for that).
Also I think a lot of the games you cover (or have covered) on this channel do do nostalgia right (Monster Sanctuary, Monster Hunter Stories 2, Abomi Nation for some examples) I just don't see it the same way with these particular ones.
Tagging the Pokémon screen as Digimon during the “three step capture process” argument 🙃
Nostalgia was better back in my day.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. Reinventing the wheel is difficult and often just unnecessary.
I guess without thinking much about it I would mainly focus on me being a story (explore and if it's good enough maybe pvp even if I barely do that) kinda guy.
I know you stopped counting examples at some point but I started the comment anyway, sometimes I'm not entirely sure myself what I want, but some little stuff about Nexomon and Coromon hold me back from trying them out currently.
Nexomon 1 especially which I remember as the Handy game and how rare Nexomon worked.
Coromon, I didn't liked the character heads and somehow got bored in the demo, which might be because I knew I had to play it again or which I'm unsure of, I actually didn't liked it in some way.
I can see Coromon being good but I don't trust myself with it unless a better sale appears currently.
I still hope Casette beasts will be the one for me, even if I noticed them looking a tiny bit like Coromons pineapple head main chars.
edit: okay I know how that sounds but is there really another way to ask? I don't want to sound mean and it's not like I have no idea or can guess why, but I'm still interessted to hear it.
Why are stuff like those backers or whatever mentioned in every video all the time?, I assume they feel like they get rewarded somehow?
It seems to make somewhat proud I guess.
I kind of agree with both of you and I think what's key is the beginning of these games – my experience with Pokemon-likes (and I suspect Adam's) has been that the first minutes or even hours of these games don't show the player what they offer beyond Pokemon, leading me to put it down before reaching what makes it great.
I think the MT rpg help keep the memory of pokemon alive so its not about being a knock off its about the essence
I'd still say the SoulsLike games (And in fact the RogueLike games as well) get a lot of free nostalgia bonuses through sunk cost fallacy.
Such a great extent of those genres consists of learning each individual game, their enemies, map layouts and combat systems, and the remainder more or less consist of making your own build and trying to beat the game over and over again that most people that have stuck with it is going to automatically have a greater than normal amount of nostalgia for it once the experience is over.
"I spent more than four hundred hours on this game, so surely it's the best game ever!"
So many of Adam's points only apply as critiques of nostalgia because the monster tamer genre has been completely neglected for the last 20 years. Imagine if Doom was one of only few FPSs or Civ was the only strategy game out there and they never developed into massive genres. Any new games that took inspiration would look so blatant because there's so little else to compare them to. It's also pretty embarrassing to have such strong opinions about games that you admitted to barely even playing.
Nostalgia is one thing, but when i see a game from a well known franchise producing a new game, I expect new things from said game. Like new mechanics, new gameplay, new everything and changes to the game that fix old mechanics that may have restricted the player from playing said game at it's full potential. I also grew to care little for graphics. Unlike other kiddie minded gamers who rely on how pretty a game looks to determine if it's good, I research the game and look up gameplay footage to see if it's worth my time.
He's talks about games he's either never played or only has a surface level knowledge sometimes, I stopped watching his channel a bit ago
A bit late on my end, but I would also like to chip in on this matter. While I think Millard has a VERY valid point about nostalgia potentially being a weakness and people over rely can stifle creativity, I think when he was talking about the various monster taming games, he used the absolute worst examples for that point and made the games look far worse than they actually are. There's very much a difference between inspiration and being a copy cat, and from what I've seen and experienced myself with these games, they are very much in the former. Though they experiment from the ideas from Pokemon, I think nothing is wrong with them taking their own spin and creating their own thing that has roots and inspiration from the old. One does not need to reinvent the wheel for every single game in the genre. Of course, monster taming games that are new and different that don't take inspiration from Pokemon are absolutely welcomed, but I don't think we should shoot down anything that has resemblance to the old.
Worst part is and probably the most ironic matter on his video is that I think Pokemon itself is far more guilty of over relying on nostalgia and stifling its creativity in some respects compared to these "knock offs." I'm not going to go too deep in it here since I'm sure you guys have heard former Pokemon fans like myself complain enough, but I'm sure you've heard of the many examples from the extreme Kanto and Charizard pandering to the over faithfulness of the BDSP to the original games and not using much of the Platinum stuff when people wanted it. Cases like those is where I feel nostalgia really hamper the capabilities of the series. Though I'm not engaged with it, I'm glad those who still are get something like Legends Arceus since it clearly shows there is still a great deal of creativity with Pokemon, there just needs to be more tack about it and the series needs to learn more self control over when it comes to its application of nostalgia.
Yeah overall, while I think he very much has a point and nostalgia and how it can be easily misused, he absolutely missed the mark when it came to evidence and might have further solidified people's notions of the "There's only Pokemon and everything else is a ripoff" mentality. Honestly hope that isn't the case, but it is a fear I came out from the video alongside being sad about how he wasted what could have been a great argument on nostalgia. Apologies if I came off overly negative or jaded about that video, but those were just my thoughts about it. To those who took the time to read this, many thanks and have a nice day.
I find it odd that he used indie titles to push his point. I agree that nostalgia is used far too much to make up for a product being poor, but you get that less with indie games since they're passion projects and not stuffy suits telling game devs what to make. I feel as though a better case could be made against many AAA titles, though tbh I feel this is more of an issue in TV shows and Movies.
I don't mean any disrespect when I say this, but it sounds like to me he just doesn't like the monster taming genre (like how someone may not like horror titles or metrovania).
UGH…and now I miss Yokai Watch again…those 3DS games were legit more entertaining than Pokémon gen7 for a short while
Wonderful video. You have a great way of putting things that shows patience and intelligence, as well as standing up for what you enjoy.